Declined Remove 1.5x Guard Damage Multiplier

[edi]

In Jailbreak, players are divided into two teams. The RED team is designated as "prisoners", while the BLU team is "guards". One member of BLU is designated as the "Warden," and has more perks than other guards such as being able to order RED players to obey commands, placing beacons, open cell doors/gates, and initiate minigames for them to compete in. Prisoners who fail the minigames are eliminated, until only one remains.

The RED team (prisoners) start in their cells, and, in almost all servers, are stripped down to their melees (with a few exceptions, such as the Medic's Medi Gun). The BLU team (guards) start in a room called the "Armoury", which houses multiple Health Kits and Ammo boxes. RED players are usually not allowed to enter Armoury, lest they be killed by the guards. RED players cannot enter the Armoury through the front exit, as the door will simply not open for them. However, most armouries have secret entrances, usually requiring prisoners to break an obstacle before they can get in.

All Jailbreak maps have a "Medic" area, where anyone entering will automatically be healed to their max health with no overheal.

While most Jailbreak rounds have prisoners win by following the Warden's orders, some prisoners will attempt to win by "rebelling", or killing the BLU team. However, this is often very difficult without a full-team cooperation, as prisoners are stripped down to their melees. BLU players, meanwhile, have access to all their weapons, as well as free access to the Armoury and all its benefits.


Taken straight from the TF2 Wiki. I made some important parts bold but I want to put even more emphasis on the last sentence here (BLU players, meanwhile, have access to all their weapons, as well as free access to the Armoury and all its benefits.)

Ever since I started playing jailbreak in 2014 this was the formula, and there never was a problem with it. BLU team had a strong advantage being range, the ability to keep their distance and still dish out damage. While for the RED players to get this ability, they have to escape their pack of prisoners manage to find an ammo pack or enter armoury all the while trying to lose the guards chasing their tail. After obtaining ammo they still have to take out the BLU team in order to win the round.

And even after collecting ammo guards still do have a few advantages like already being grouped up in a team and having instant access to armoury, if they so need. But on Flux servers they also have the 1.5x damage increase meaning that you, as a RED will NEVER be on the level that the BLUs are at even after collecting ammo.

I also want you guys to understand that there is skill expression in jailbreak for Guards, and for both sides of the RED team, rebelling and minigame players. I enjoy all 3 sides but the 1.5x damage increase makes it hard for me and others to enjoy 2 sides here. The obvious one being the rebelling side and the example is above. And the second side might come unexpected but for me personally I simply cannot enjoy being a guard on these servers, the 1.5x just makes it so damn easy to handle rebelling REDs that I don’t even have to try to be competent and prevent them from getting ammo, unless it’s a mass rebel.


And for the people that do not see how ridiculous 1.5x damage really is. if we take 150% damage and return it to normal 100%(one third less) but also decreasing HP of the REDs by one third we can see how much HP REDs have in the current gameplay setting of Flux jailbreak server.

This would mean that:

Scout has 84 HP
Soldier has 134 HP
Heavy has 200 HP
Medic has 100HP

The only reason why 1.5x has lasted this long is because it’s not in your face when you first join the server. It’s something you discover a bit later on when a soldier one shots you with the default rocket launcher while you’re playing medic. If I were to freshly join a jailbreak server and pick scout and would see my HP at 84 max, I would leave right away.


Every time this topic has actually come up in the in-game server 90% of people talking were against it. Only here on the forums I see people defending the damage increase, so I will go into some comments from other posts on this topic that defend the 1.5x damage.

“No. It's not meant to be easy for red to rebel and blues already get demolished as it is.“

I have yet to see half competent people get demolished on blue. The only reason I see blue get demolished is because they are not competent enough and no amount of damage increase will make them more competent. Being a competent blue starts with what class you pick and if you are just 4 players total on blue and 2 pick pyro and the other 2 pick spy. Well, then you’re just asking for it. 0 chasing potential for running REDs means they will get ammo in no time. Pick scout or soldier, mobility is great for chasing REDs and splash damage is good for stopping a rebelling group.


“1.5x damage is better. imagine 4 blues vs 20 reds. blues will get demolished”

Like said above. Pick the proper classes if you are losing rounds in a row the same way, change it up. The jailbreak formula should not be changed because players are incompetent. This will only make the competent players godly strong and again ruin one side of what makes jailbreak fun.


“Guards already have trouble as it is i'd suggest getting better”

This one is in defense of 1.5x damage by the way. I just thought it was funny that they suggest REDs get better.


“the current rules significantly favours reds, if you want it toned down you have no skill and need yet another crutch to rebel”

They most certainly do not, for example the breaking of breakables makes you KOS as red. Not even breaking it, just hitting it once makes you KOS. Where on other servers breaking a breakable meant having an option to escape if guards forgot about it, on flux if they even catch you hitting it, you’re out. So I believe it’s quite the opposite. The current rules heavily favour blues.


Flux.TF Owner: “This has also been a heated discussion in the past. I believe that the current damage output is still appropriate.”

I believe the opposite. It is far from appropriate in my opinion, rebelling and playing for LR are 2 sides of the same coin, some rounds where I plan to rebel I instead go for LR and others where I go for LR I end up rebelling instead. The damage increase forces reds to refrain from rebelling since they know that even if they get ammo, they will never be on the same level as their opponent. Skill expression is lesser. No more riding a soldiers rocket to escape him, instead you will get one shot. The randomness if less, and guards competency even lesser. I mean why should they be competent when they get carried by their stats?


Let the jailbreak formula be as it always has been. I have seen too many servers try to change it only to realise that what makes jailbreak good is the simplicity. Guard got weapon. Red got no weapon. Play game.

Skill from TF2 should translate into jailbreak and a better player shouldn’t lose to a worse one because they have overtuned stats. Guards have lots of chances to prevent reds getting ammo, being half competent is enough and it starts with picking the right class.


Thanks for reading, feel free to debate and please read the post fully before you do.

Suggestion by Firebird and edi.

 

[K̶̐͋̔̽a̴̢̗̖̬̿i̵̻͔̝̍ 壊]

I'm somebody whose a fan of the damage buff and I'll summarize my stance briefly.

In games where there's only <2 guards and +8 reds, I feel as though the damage buff is somewhat needed as having only 1 blue able to hunt make it incredibly difficult to deal with rebels as warden can't hunt.

Reds who escape blues can easily get the drop on blues once ammo is obtained. Especially snipers & scouts.

I would however be for a damage boost REDUCTION where it's changed from 1.5x to 1.3x or even 1.25x but heavily against a full-out removal. Additionally I think it could be beneficial if the damage boost becomes disabled once the guard team is past a certain amount (like 4+ blues).

 

[edi]

I'm somebody whose a fan of the damage buff and I'll summarize my stance briefly.

In games where there's only <2 guards and +8 reds, I feel as though the damage buff is somewhat needed as having only 1 blue able to hunt make it incredibly difficult to deal with rebels as warden can't hunt.

Reds who escape blues can easily get the drop on blues once ammo is obtained. Especially snipers & scouts.

I would however be for a damage boost REDUCTION where it's changed from 1.5x to 1.3x or even 1.25x but heavily against a full-out removal. Additionally I think it could be beneficial if the damage boost becomes disabled once the guard team is past a certain amount (like 4+ blues).

You are forgetting that BLU team losing to rebellers is an appropriate outcome to a round and part of jailbreak. Even 2 guards have enough tools to prevent rebellers if they are half smart. Block exits and play with both eyes open. Guard damage was not a problem 10 years ago and it is not now.

Think about it, will 1.5x damage multiplier really change much for the incompetent side of the players? They will stay picking their nose playing one-handed, and on the opposite spectrum, the actual good guards will be unstoppable because of 1.5x.

Pick something with chasing potential, pick a class that can defend itself. A red rebeller with ammo playing against 7 active guards is not a problem. So why is it a problem when the opposite occurs in a game by fault of guard incompetency?

 

[kringu]

I would agree with this if REDs weren't able to just bhop away which takes away any skill or timing away from the picture. Guards attacking you while you bhop quite literally only helps you and gives you a boost as well. It's not fair to expect guards to use their brains when REDs do not have to either, bhopping will do all the heavylifting. No need for sneaking around or waiting for the right moment. Bhopping is very popular according to previous polls, and so I don't see both of these changes happening at once, and I can't agree to only one being changed.

RANT WARNING
Many servers have guards with crits, without REDs being able to bhop. On Flux, it is already way too easy for REDs. The only time I have seen guards win on Flux these days is if somehow the warden gives precise orders and the guards realize they can shoot people who are not listening. It's very hard for this generation of jailbreak players to say the dreaded word "bombrush" or specify which yellow line to AFK freeze on when playing warden, and try to be an active guard instead of running to Burger King or other mini-games every round.

I've been playing jailbreak since the CS 1.6 days, all the way up to CS:S, CS:GO, and Gmod, including TF2. Guns in TF2 are weak at long range, which is why crits are usually given to guards. An AK will three tap you and most likely two tap you if you have no armor. This is how jailbreak is meant to be. The same concept applies in TF2 as well, being able to kill warden was not a thing that was able to be done every single round by 4 people who can press the jump button, it would be quite an occasion actually and be exciting. I don't think anyone even cares if warden dies anymore, it's expected on Flux. It should be a proof of wit and cunningness to be able to get ammo or kill warden. With bhop, anyone can do it, at any time.

Jailbreak would be fine if REDs didn't have bhop, and as a compromise guards do not need crits, which are my favorite settings. This used to be the standard when jailbreak started on TF2, and I enjoyed it much more than anything. I believe only SG gaming and cutiepie.TF use these settings anymore. Eventually, older players left and the people joining the game got worse at the game over time, so the new standard was guards having crits.

Sidenote: Something I've noticed is that there are very few players that actually enjoy "Jailbreak" as it should be, many people who rebel every round will rage quit when there's a BLU with a few brain cells and decent positioning, and no one is backing them on their !fire to cause a freeday for a few seconds. When I play warden I even let some of these people get away because I know they'll just leave if I kill them, it's like playing with a little brother. It seems that every generation of jailbreak players on Flux seem to have half as much attention span as the last, probably because of TikTok rotting their brains.

 

[K̶̐͋̔̽a̴̢̗̖̬̿i̵̻͔̝̍ 壊]

You are forgetting that BLU team losing to rebellers is an appropriate outcome to a round and part of jailbreak. Even 2 guards have enough tools to prevent rebellers if they are half smart. Block exits and play with both eyes open. Guard damage was not a problem 10 years ago and it is not now.

Think about it, will 1.5x damage multiplier really change much for the incompetent side of the players? They will stay picking their nose playing one-handed, and on the opposite spectrum, the actual good guards will be unstoppable because of 1.5x.

Pick something with chasing potential, pick a class that can defend itself. A red rebeller with ammo playing against 7 active guards is not a problem. So why is it a problem when the opposite occurs in a game by fault of guard incompetency?

That's exactly the problem I have of having competent guards on blue. Whenever I find myself on blue in low population situations my guards typically consist of kids who got no clue what they're doing and opt not to hunt. It's a pain in the ass to solo ~8 reds and babysit a 10 year old so the damage buff is a major help when a warden.

But I do concede the point of fantastic TF2 players being unstoppable w/ the buff.

 

[kringu]

The only reason why 1.5x has lasted this long is because it’s not in your face when you first join the server. It’s something you discover a bit later on when a soldier one shots you with the default rocket launcher while you’re playing medic. If I were to freshly join a jailbreak server and pick scout and would see my HP at 84 max, I would leave right away.

This is something I agree with which is why at one point I suggested that guards are given mini-crits, which is a visible effect. Not many people agreed with me.

 

[kringu]

Just to note, I do agree with you but we cannot have both bhop enabled AND damage bonus removed. If anything, both need to be removed then. Will that be more fun for everyone is the question. Guards bhopping too as a counter-measure is not equivalent to rebellers bhopping away at max speed after being shot in the back, just for one rebeller while there might be 3-4 more.

 

[Firebird]

Just to note, I do agree with you but we cannot have both bhop enabled AND damage bonus removed. If anything, both need to be removed then. Will that be more fun for everyone is the question. Guards bhopping too as a counter-measure is not equivalent to rebellers bhopping away at max speed after being shot in the back, just for one rebeller while there might be 3-4 more.

That seems fair, bhopping is arguably not a fair advantage since not everyone can bhop in this game, however even if an individual is bhopping, if they get shot by a guard with 1,5x they will be very weak for the execution of the rebel.

 

[kringu]

That seems fair, bhopping is arguably not a fair advantage since not everyone can bhop in this game, however even if an individual is bhopping, if they get shot by a guard with 1,5x they will be very weak for the execution of the rebel.

Actually, my point is that bhopping through the plugin is so easy that anyone with half a brain can do it, and it's not fair that a guard needs to bhop 1000 meters towards that singular RED within a few seconds, making sure to not shoot them so that they aren't boosted.

Go ahead and try bhopping on any other source game or base TF2. You have a few frames to execute a bhop. It is not easy and shouldn't be, it's too powerful in my opinion. CS:GO players even use the scrollwheel to input jump commands because it's quite literally impossible to consistently bhop, due to how it works. Valve made it impossible in TF2 to even use that luck-based version of bhop that is possible in CS:GO for a reason. The plugin on Flux allows for an entire half second after you hit the ground to maintain your horizontal momentum, it should be a few frames, not an entire half second.

Getting health is as simple as bhopping across the map and waiting for warden to leave the area with a Medic building, and even then for you to be unable to heal, there need to be guards covering both armory and Medic building, which isn't easy on many maps; some maps even have healthpacks at climb or arena, so I highly doubt you can't get health for maybe 30-40 damage that you took. And on top of that, many people rebel with classes that have regen (Sniper and Soldier) which happen to be very strong with their guns.

 

[edi]

Just to note, I do agree with you but we cannot have both bhop enabled AND damage bonus removed. If anything, both need to be removed then. Will that be more fun for everyone is the question. Guards bhopping too as a counter-measure is not equivalent to rebellers bhopping away at max speed after being shot in the back, just for one rebeller while there might be 3-4 more.

Bhopping is not as bad as you make it seem. Even with the current bhop guards still have the advantage. If you're soldier on blue you can build to max speed in one rocket jump, increasing your chasing potential further. For a red to get that speed they have to build it up for at least half a minute, or get shot in the back. And even if they do get shot in the back they still most likely won't have the same speed that a soldier can have in one rocket jump.

And if you're approaching a blue in bhop you will find that they can easily stop you since your movement will be predictable and a few hitscan shots, most of the time even one shotgun shot will bring you to a standstill.

As long as both teams can use bhop to their advantage I think it's ok. However I do understand wanting to remove it as well.

 

[K̶̐͋̔̽a̴̢̗̖̬̿i̵̻͔̝̍ 壊]

I don't even know what to think in this discussion anymore. It seems much more complicated than I initially thought after reading these comments.

I do agree that the damage bonus should not exist in the current state of 1.5x but I see no harm in experimenting with a lower multiplier instead of removing it altogether.

 

[Firebird]

I don't even know what to think in this discussion anymore. It seems much more complicated than I initially thought after reading these comments.

I do agree that the damage bonus should not exist in the current state of 1.5x but I see no harm in experimenting with a lower multiplier instead of removing it altogether.

The whole point of this discussion is for the removal of the damage multiplier all together. I think the only compromise i would see that would be befitting is limiting the damage only for the warden. No matter if its 1.5, or 1,3 its still a damage multiplier.

But im really glad that you joined the discussion and gave your points.

 

[festive god]

Let’s be clear here, everyone loves bhop, even if u hate it, you love it. It took a huge argument to get rid of bhop during VSH. Even if it caused massive delays for the game, and made it almost impossible to win the game if even one was really good at bhoping. The dead ringer spies, still exist in my nightmares. Hence I believe, if u want to remove the damage buff, u must remove bhop, which I find almost an impossible feat. Because everyone wants to bhop, so it’s a must for blues to counteract that. I believe the damage buff is just for that effect alone, because bhoping exist, reds will always have the best advantage to escaping, even if blu has bhoping as well. It’s without a doubt the game changer here. U must come to the understanding, that both either need to exist or don’t. But never one without the other.

 

[K̶̐͋̔̽a̴̢̗̖̬̿i̵̻͔̝̍ 壊]

Let’s be clear here, everyone loves bhop, even if u hate it, you love it. It took a huge argument to get rid of bhop during VSH. Even if it caused massive delays for the game, and made it almost impossible to win the game if even one was really good at bhoping. The dead ringer spies, still exist in my nightmares. Hence I believe, if u want to remove the damage buff, u must remove bhop, which I find almost an impossible feat. Because everyone wants to bhop, so it’s a must for blues to counteract that. I believe the damage buff is just for that effect alone, because bhoping exist, reds will always have the best advantage to escaping, even if blu has bhoping as well. It’s without a doubt the game changer here. U must come to the understanding, that both either need to exist or don’t. But never one without the other.

+1 for keeping bhop that's for sure

 

[Firebird]

Let’s be clear here, everyone loves bhop, even if u hate it, you love it. It took a huge argument to get rid of bhop during VSH. Even if it caused massive delays for the game, and made it almost impossible to win the game if even one was really good at bhoping. The dead ringer spies, still exist in my nightmares. Hence I believe, if u want to remove the damage buff, u must remove bhop, which I find almost an impossible feat. Because everyone wants to bhop, so it’s a must for blues to counteract that. I believe the damage buff is just for that effect alone, because bhoping exist, reds will always have the best advantage to escaping, even if blu has bhoping as well. It’s without a doubt the game changer here. U must come to the understanding, that both either need to exist or don’t. But never one without the other.

The way i see it the blues have a bigger advantage with bhopping even without the 1,5x. They can still rocket jump for a massive speedboost that will take the red a long time to accumilate. So what i dont get is why the only reason that the 1,5x can go is if the bhopping goes as well. You really need to see it from a very simple perspective.

The guards have tools they can use to chase rebellers (rocketjumpimg, stickyjumping etc.) They are the one that is in control. The problem is the compitance of blues. If they are outnumbered and they do not choose classes that can actually help them against the reds then its their own fault for losing. This is the very essence of jailbreak.

 

[Firebird]

The way i see it the blues have a bigger advantage with bhopping even without the 1,5x. They can still rocket jump for a massive speedboost that will take the red a long time to accumilate. So what i dont get is why the only reason that the 1,5x can go is if the bhopping goes as well. You really need to see it from a very simple perspective.

The guards have tools they can use to chase rebellers (rocketjumpimg, stickyjumping etc.) They are the one that is in control. The problem is the compitance of blues. If they are outnumbered and they do not choose classes that can actually help them against the reds then its their own fault for losing. This is the very essence of jailbreak.

Even if you removed the 1,5x the blues would still be able to chase and kill the rebellers with relative ease.

 

[kringu]

Let’s be clear here, everyone loves bhop, even if u hate it, you love it. It took a huge argument to get rid of bhop during VSH. Even if it caused massive delays for the game, and made it almost impossible to win the game if even one was really good at bhoping. The dead ringer spies, still exist in my nightmares. Hence I believe, if u want to remove the damage buff, u must remove bhop, which I find almost an impossible feat. Because everyone wants to bhop, so it’s a must for blues to counteract that. I believe the damage buff is just for that effect alone, because bhoping exist, reds will always have the best advantage to escaping, even if blu has bhoping as well. It’s without a doubt the game changer here. U must come to the understanding, that both either need to exist or don’t. But never one without the other.

Agree with this completely.

 

[edi]

The way i see it the blues have a bigger advantage with bhopping even without the 1,5x. They can still rocket jump for a massive speedboost that will take the red a long time to accumilate. So what i dont get is why the only reason that the 1,5x can go is if the bhopping goes as well. You really need to see it from a very simple perspective.

The guards have tools they can use to chase rebellers (rocketjumpimg, stickyjumping etc.) They are the one that is in control. The problem is the compitance of blues. If they are outnumbered and they do not choose classes that can actually help them against the reds then its their own fault for losing. This is the very essence of jailbreak.

And they forget that guards can just stand by exits to block them? Rendering red side bhop useless. Bhop is a tool in this server that again, favors blue side.

 

[kringu]

The way i see it the blues have a bigger advantage with bhopping even without the 1,5x. They can still rocket jump for a massive speedboost that will take the red a long time to accumilate. So what i dont get is why the only reason that the 1,5x can go is if the bhopping goes as well. You really need to see it from a very simple perspective.

The guards have tools they can use to chase rebellers (rocketjumpimg, stickyjumping etc.) They are the one that is in control. The problem is the compitance of blues. If they are outnumbered and they do not choose classes that can actually help them against the reds then its their own fault for losing. This is the very essence of jailbreak.

I just don't see it like that, in practice. I believe that you are not taking into account that rebellers should have a competence requirement, and not just guards. It is way too easy to just run at warden and crit them, or just bhop away.

Firebird, let me put it in my perspective; if it's too hard to rebel during a round... then that makes getting LR much more rewarding, and makes the LR more fun, and makes playing the mini-games more exciting! But If it's too hard to be on guards during a round... the round just starts over, no one gets LR, and anyone actually listening (the point of the game mode!!) get nothing for listening. People groan about Freedays for All because everyday on Flux is a freeday for all.

While most Jailbreak rounds have prisoners win by following the Warden's orders, some prisoners will attempt to win by "rebelling", or killing the BLU team. However, this is often very difficult without a full-team cooperation, as prisoners are stripped down to their melees. BLU players, meanwhile, have access to all their weapons, as well as free access to the Armoury and all its benefits.

Even the wiki, as you have quoted, says that rebelling can require extreme effort and even team organization! This is how it should be. But even now most rounds on Flux JB end with warden dying.

 

[kringu]

But If it's too hard to be on guards during a round... the round just starts over, no one gets LR, and anyone actually listening (the point of the game mode!!) get nothing for listening.

And don't forget logistics: most people do not want to play on guard or do not have a mic. We need guards to have fun or they will switch to red, and then BLU will be weaker as a result, and then the remaining BLUs will have less fun against rebellers, etc. It's a negative feedback loop until BLU is empty and the server dies. I have seen this happen way too much, I'm not talking out of my ass here!