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Jailbreak additions I want implemented

Ginger

Unremarkable
Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
23
So since the last thread about Jailbreak kind of died I just want to reiterate the things that I think should be added in to jailbreak:

Pyros should be allowed to airblast: People argue that this would be too easy to abuse and it's just easy knockback, but yet they don't say anything about all the other knockback weapons that there are such as the Loose cannon and the Shortstop, which when used, aren't actually abused as much as you would think they would be. The enabling of Pyro's airblast would actually be a good addition because at the moment, without pyro's airblast he is weaker than he should be.

Scouts should be allowed to double jump on both teams: The argument I've seen against this is that it would be too overpowered for the red team such as making it too easy to rebel and just escape and run away, and also make it too easy to play minigames. I disagree with both statements. Firstly, double jumping is not just an instant get out of jail free card, you actually have to run away from where the blues are watching, and if the blues fail to hit you with their multiple guns that they have. That is their fault, not because scout's double jump was overpowered. Secondly, the other way of rebelling which is too try to kill a guard, would still not change for scout. Scout does not have a strong melee for doing damage and killing people who again, have guns. Next, scout would not be overpowered in minigames because most minigames do not require being able to jump far/high. The only ones that come to mind are climb, obstacle course, minefield, deathrun, and sweeper. But then there is still the rest of the minigames, such as box game, theater, jeopardy, nine square, crush game, and the list goes on and on. Scout would also be terrible at friendly fire minigames compared to the better classes such as heavy, soldier, and medic. Furthermore, scout's double jump could be a class restriction that the warden can apply. Which can be enforceable because when scout uses his double jump, you see a little gray line in the air which shows where he double jumped from. And think of all the class options which there also are instead of scout, such as spy, with the insta-kill melee. Medic, soldier and sniper, with their self regeneration with weapons such as conch and cozy camper. In conclusion, scout's double jump would not be overpowered.

Warden crits should be removed: This is something which people complain about constantly on the jailbreak server. The fact that you can't do anything without just dying immediately to the warden. You want to run away? Crit. You want to try to rebel? Crit. The problem with this is that warden crits, are in fact overpowered. They give the warden too big of an advantage, and makes it way too difficult to rebel on red team. If you want to run at the warden, he can just hit you with his melee once or twice and you're just gone. If you want to run away, oh well. The warden is a sniper and just left clicks on you and you're gone. The argument I've seen against this is that it is not overpowered and if you took it away then blu team would be too weak, and then say 'How come the warden still dies sometimes then?' So my counter argument would be that firstly, it would mean blu team would have to play well and not rely on crits to just be able to instantly kill anything. You actually have to aim if you want to play sniper, and you have to shoot the rebeller more than once if you want to be able to kill him. The reason I am against warden crits is because they are so braindead, you can just shoot once and they're gone. No thought needed and barely any input needed. Secondly, in these situations where warden dies, it was because they were playing poorly or making a mistake, or being surprise attacked by a rebeller. The fact that they had crits meant nothing if they just stood right in front of the reds in a closed space such as diner. Without crits, the warden would actually have to think and play properly instead of relying on their crits.

Conclusion: Add scout's double jump for both teams, add Pyro's airblast back, and remove warden crits but leave the x1.5 damage.
 

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Scarcely Lethal
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
41
So since the last thread about Jailbreak kind of died I just want to reiterate the things that I think should be added in to jailbreak:

Pyros should be allowed to airblast: People argue that this would be too easy to abuse and it's just easy knockback, but yet they don't say anything about all the other knockback weapons that there are such as the Loose cannon and the Shortstop, which when used, aren't actually abused as much as you would think they would be. The enabling of Pyro's airblast would actually be a good addition because at the moment, without pyro's airblast he is weaker than he should be.

Scouts should be allowed to double jump on both teams: The argument I've seen against this is that it would be too overpowered for the red team such as making it too easy to rebel and just escape and run away, and also make it too easy to play minigames. I disagree with both statements. Firstly, double jumping is not just an instant get out of jail free card, you actually have to run away from where the blues are watching, and if the blues fail to hit you with their multiple guns that they have. That is their fault, not because scout's double jump was overpowered. Secondly, the other way of rebelling which is too try to kill a guard, would still not change for scout. Scout does not have a strong melee for doing damage and killing people who again, have guns. Next, scout would not be overpowered in minigames because most minigames do not require being able to jump far/high. The only ones that come to mind are climb, obstacle course, minefield, deathrun, and sweeper. But then there is still the rest of the minigames, such as box game, theater, jeopardy, nine square, crush game, and the list goes on and on. Scout would also be terrible at friendly fire minigames compared to the better classes such as heavy, soldier, and medic. Furthermore, scout's double jump could be a class restriction that the warden can apply. Which can be enforceable because when scout uses his double jump, you see a little gray line in the air which shows where he double jumped from. And think of all the class options which there also are instead of scout, such as spy, with the insta-kill melee. Medic, soldier and sniper, with their self regeneration with weapons such as conch and cozy camper. In conclusion, scout's double jump would not be overpowered.

Warden crits should be removed: This is something which people complain about constantly on the jailbreak server. The fact that you can't do anything without just dying immediately to the warden. You want to run away? Crit. You want to try to rebel? Crit. The problem with this is that warden crits, are in fact overpowered. They give the warden too big of an advantage, and makes it way too difficult to rebel on red team. If you want to run at the warden, he can just hit you with his melee once or twice and you're just gone. If you want to run away, oh well. The warden is a sniper and just left clicks on you and you're gone. The argument I've seen against this is that it is not overpowered and if you took it away then blu team would be too weak, and then say 'How come the warden still dies sometimes then?' So my counter argument would be that firstly, it would mean blu team would have to play well and not rely on crits to just be able to instantly kill anything. You actually have to aim if you want to play sniper, and you have to shoot the rebeller more than once if you want to be able to kill him. The reason I am against warden crits is because they are so braindead, you can just shoot once and they're gone. No thought needed and barely any input needed. Secondly, in these situations where warden dies, it was because they were playing poorly or making a mistake, or being surprise attacked by a rebeller. The fact that they had crits meant nothing if they just stood right in front of the reds in a closed space such as diner. Without crits, the warden would actually have to think and play properly instead of relying on their crits.

Conclusion: Add scout's double jump for both teams, add Pyro's airblast back, and remove warden crits but leave the x1.5 damage.
Pog this is reallly needed tbh

ALSO the saxton hale lr kinda needs to be disabled until its fixed because it crashes the server daily now lmao
 

Zømcøm

Scarcely Lethal
Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
34
Today on jailbreak saxton hale was killed twice. Once by a player, and a second time by a minigame neither times did the map crash.
and lately it hasnt crashed(a couple of days of me playing),
but how about making it so the less points you have the less likely you are to be choosen to be hale so its less likely a crash will happen
 
Last edited:

Osome Oli

Truly Feared
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
200
I wonder if it's possible to change the 1.5x damage to minicrits.

I agree with all 3 points, however.
 

Zømcøm

Scarcely Lethal
Staff Member
Moderator
Joined
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Messages
34
About the scout:
the scout as a class can kill a player which is on the BLU team easily if the BLU is caught off guard and or if he chooses to rebel at the right spot and time, if he doesn’t want to be killed off quickly he should rush a non-explosive class and he shouldn’t rush a heavy or a pyro (an explosive class can kill off a rebeller easily without or with crits this is due to how they damage other players, they damage the players by blast damage. Blast damage on the BLU team as the playable class soldier usually deals about 135‬ DMG(90 DMG multiplied by 1.5x) and the demo does ~181dmg ((~stickybomb launchers)120.5‬ DMG multiplied by 1.5) for a scout that means that a conflict with an explosive class means death or that the BLU teams' player will accidently kill them self’s trying to kill the rebeller (~58dmg on explosive(can’t say to which class it might be tough so it could be either soldier or demo maybe even for both classes)) , fighting the heavy is harder for he does have more hit points than a demo or a soldier does(heavy HP without any added in HP is 300) plus because of his primary he can finish of the scout might it be medium range or point blank. The pyro is a no, no for rushing it’s because the pyro is strong at close-range cause of the DMG he does to other in this range with his primary weapon. (all these classes have too much HP and do too much DMG at close range for them to be a viable class to try to kill.)). Other classes are more viable for their HP, and they can’t do blast damage which doesn’t take much skill as shooting a hit-reg weapon does (like the heavy doesn’t rush any classes that you know the players have equipped with a high speed shooting gun (like the sniper and his SMG). To not die as fast by other classes that aren’t viable I’d suggest rushing the warden or any other class in a zigzag pattern so to make it harder for them to kill you. If the scout runs in a straight line they become an easy prey for any BLUS able of hitting straight moving players. Remember to also move from right to left or wise versa also remember to make sure you’re looking straight at the player you want to kill when he’s almost and in your melee range.
By the way the scout does 35 DMG every 0.5 s so after a 2 sec of successful 4 hits on the other team player the scout does 140 damage((if you get a random crit in one of the 4 hits you would have done 210 DMG to the BLU) DMG does also depend on the melee used if you use Sun on a stick you will only do 26 DMG normally per hit but with a crit 78 DMG, if Fan O'War is used it does 9 DMG but with a crit it only does 27 DMG, Atomizer does 28 DMG on a crit it does 84 DMG, Wrap Assassin does 11 DMG on crit 33 DMG) that means any class above 140 can survive an attack from a scout. The double jump only would help out slightly rebelling when you rebel at the best possible time but if we are talking about the scout rebelling when any class from the BLU saw them rebel it would only help out in rushing the BLU player (using bhop would help out more because you get faster to the BLU you want to kill, but if trying to combine it with double jump would only slow down the scout to normal speed without bhop (unless something is written in the plugin(if it is it could possibly be op))). Besides rushing the red it would be op in these mini games:
Fall Game, Death Run, Crush Game(only in some maps where it’s an object which comes from beneath to kill you or where the square disappears), Obstacle Course, Sweeper, Dodgeball/Soccer(you could either survive the game easier or get to the ball faster and quicker) , Minefield(in most maps that are played with bhop combined you can skip a portion or just using double jump make it without exploding any mines), gladiator or pokemon( when you have to fight a BLU you make it harder for them to hit you unless the BLU has good aim), Stairway to Heaven, vs sentry(you can get to safety faster or make it harder for the sentry to aim at you in addition with a medic you can kill of a LVL 1-2 sentry but a LVL 3 with only uber or with a bigger HP and DMG doing character.) , jump rope, ninja (don’t remember the full name but it’s in the map that’s underground, in a mine, in the map there’s a train, and the only outside part(where you can see the sky) of the map is karts) , speed run( makes it easier to jump over obstacles) , steady pace. In these mini games it would be op because you could double jump over dangers bellow or even skip a trap where you have to jump over something or use the environment to survive.
Picking other classes than scout that can heal would only be useful in these mini games, if some mini games aren’t in this list the class would be normally useful (neither bad nor good) or either it won’t be useful (or they are just missing because I couldn’t think of any more: climb, minefield, vs sentry, games used with friendly fire.
The scout is bad at games where he has to fight his own teammates due to hit-reg. The double jump could be restricted by the warden but then why have it re-introduced.
classes who can “instantly” catch up are demo, soldier, pyro (maybe scout with force of nature but it doesn’t give a high enough speed boost to be able to catch up a scout who might have bhoped away or the speed boost would be negated if use wrongly). No other class can use their weapons to gain a speed boost without giving the rebeller extra time to get more distance further from you.

About pyros air blast:
As I remember it was removed because people kept abusing it.
Abusing as in a pyro would air blast reds trying to follow the wardens orders and the pyro kept on doing it, it was annoying to the reds that it was removed(as I remember it, it might not be 100% true.). If it would be punishable, it should be that the pyro only gets 3 warnings if he does it once more he gets a slay if he does it 3 times in a row it would result only in a 10 min team ban (from 1 to 3 rounds it will last (depends on the warden how long a round last but if played fully, 10 minutes 1 round lasts)). If the punishment gets harsher, I would say it’s kinda abusement of powers, because the offender only abused something that was on purpose re-introduced into the flux JB(but if he does mass freekill yeah he should get a teamban). Other weapons can’t be abusable or as annoying as the pyros primary’s secondary fire is. All other weapons do, do DMG when knock backing somebody on the other team and other weapons knockback is used for killing purposes or are a side effect of the weapon usage except the flame thrower that does no damages on use of its secondary fire.
skip to 1:32 this will happen maybe not on the day of implementation, maybe not after a month, maybe not after half a year but this will happen

About the warden:
The warden is a special player that is the only one with ability to give orders and if they aren’t followed the reds are KOS. Because of that the reds might want to kill him. Of course if the warden plays as ginger said a class that can mass control(kill 2 or more players in 1 shot.) he won’t be killed off as fast, but the problem is that then the rest of the BLU team is going to be a mass controlling class cause they don’t know if there are going to get picked by the plugin so, BLUS play other classes like spy, medic, engineer, sniper, scout because for them it might be more fun to play as these classes or they want to show off their items that they have on their class like hats or taunts. Forcing BLUS to play classes they might not like to play it will make it less fun to play jb for BLUS because they have to give orders (if they dislike being a warden but like being a guard because of the 5 min freedom). Crits are there so classes that aren’t made for mass control to be able to survive a red rush on the warden, but the warden still dies if the warden isn’t a mass control class but also it still happens with a mass control class too. Also crits are there to not just be a helping hand in the warden’s arsenal but it is also one of the things that separate him from the other BLUS. The crits also help out new players to the blu team. So I would say the Soldier should have only crits on his melee same goes for demo (unless the soldier has a market gardener, the weapon is a market gardener.) pyro should only have crits on his secondary and melee same goes for heavy and sniper(why sniper because without scoping in he can do 150 DMG) , all other classes should have full crits on all their weapons(exept for spys ambasidor) because if they didn’t it would be a lot more harder to survive for them also by removing crits on some weapons it would help out the reds to rebel.

conclusion(scout shouldn't have crits, pyro shouldn't have airblast and the warden should have crits exept on some of his weapons.
 

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Scarcely Lethal
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
41
About the scout:
the scout as a class can kill a player which is on the BLU team easily if the BLU is caught off guard and or if he chooses to rebel at the right spot and time, if he doesn’t want to be killed off quickly he should rush a non-explosive class and he shouldn’t rush a heavy or a pyro (an explosive class can kill off a rebeller easily without or with crits this is due to how they damage other players, they damage the players by blast damage. Blast damage on the BLU team as the playable class soldier usually deals about 135‬ DMG(90 DMG multiplied by 1.5x) and the demo does ~181dmg ((~stickybomb launchers)120.5‬ DMG multiplied by 1.5) for a scout that means that a conflict with an explosive class means death or that the BLU teams' player will accidently kill them self’s trying to kill the rebeller (~58dmg on explosive(can’t say to which class it might be tough so it could be either soldier or demo maybe even for both classes)) , fighting the heavy is harder for he does have more hit points than a demo or a soldier does(heavy HP without any added in HP is 300) plus because of his primary he can finish of the scout might it be medium range or point blank. The pyro is a no, no for rushing it’s because the pyro is strong at close-range cause of the DMG he does to other in this range with his primary weapon. (all these classes have too much HP and do too much DMG at close range for them to be a viable class to try to kill.)). Other classes are more viable for their HP, and they can’t do blast damage which doesn’t take much skill as shooting a hit-reg weapon does (like the heavy doesn’t rush any classes that you know the players have equipped with a high speed shooting gun (like the sniper and his SMG). To not die as fast by other classes that aren’t viable I’d suggest rushing the warden or any other class in a zigzag pattern so to make it harder for them to kill you. If the scout runs in a straight line they become an easy prey for any BLUS able of hitting straight moving players. Remember to also move from right to left or wise versa also remember to make sure you’re looking straight at the player you want to kill when he’s almost and in your melee range.
By the way the scout does 35 DMG every 0.5 s so after a 2 sec of successful 4 hits on the other team player the scout does 140 damage((if you get a random crit in one of the 4 hits you would have done 210 DMG to the BLU) DMG does also depend on the melee used if you use Sun on a stick you will only do 26 DMG normally per hit but with a crit 78 DMG, if Fan O'War is used it does 9 DMG but with a crit it only does 27 DMG, Atomizer does 28 DMG on a crit it does 84 DMG, Wrap Assassin does 11 DMG on crit 33 DMG) that means any class above 140 can survive an attack from a scout. The double jump only would help out slightly rebelling when you rebel at the best possible time but if we are talking about the scout rebelling when any class from the BLU saw them rebel it would only help out in rushing the BLU player (using bhop would help out more because you get faster to the BLU you want to kill, but if trying to combine it with double jump would only slow down the scout to normal speed without bhop (unless something is written in the plugin(if it is it could possibly be op))). Besides rushing the red it would be op in these mini games:
Fall Game, Death Run, Crush Game(only in some maps where it’s an object which comes from beneath to kill you or where the square disappears), Obstacle Course, Sweeper, Dodgeball/Soccer(you could either survive the game easier or get to the ball faster and quicker) , Minefield(in most maps that are played with bhop combined you can skip a portion or just using double jump make it without exploding any mines), gladiator or pokemon( when you have to fight a BLU you make it harder for them to hit you unless the BLU has good aim), Stairway to Heaven, vs sentry(you can get to safety faster or make it harder for the sentry to aim at you in addition with a medic you can kill of a LVL 1-2 sentry but a LVL 3 with only uber or with a bigger HP and DMG doing character.) , jump rope, ninja (don’t remember the full name but it’s in the map that’s underground, in a mine, in the map there’s a train, and the only outside part(where you can see the sky) of the map is karts) , speed run( makes it easier to jump over obstacles) , steady pace. In these mini games it would be op because you could double jump over dangers bellow or even skip a trap where you have to jump over something or use the environment to survive.
Picking other classes than scout that can heal would only be useful in these mini games, if some mini games aren’t in this list the class would be normally useful (neither bad nor good) or either it won’t be useful (or they are just missing because I couldn’t think of any more: climb, minefield, vs sentry, games used with friendly fire.
The scout is bad at games where he has to fight his own teammates due to hit-reg. The double jump could be restricted by the warden but then why have it re-introduced.
classes who can “instantly” catch up are demo, soldier, pyro (maybe scout with force of nature but it doesn’t give a high enough speed boost to be able to catch up a scout who might have bhoped away or the speed boost would be negated if use wrongly). No other class can use their weapons to gain a speed boost without giving the rebeller extra time to get more distance further from you.

About pyros air blast:
As I remember it was removed because people kept abusing it.
Abusing as in a pyro would air blast reds trying to follow the wardens orders and the pyro kept on doing it, it was annoying to the reds that it was removed(as I remember it, it might not be 100% true.). If it would be punishable, it should be that the pyro only gets 3 warnings if he does it once more he gets a slay if he does it 3 times in a row it would result only in a 10 min team ban (from 1 to 3 rounds it will last (depends on the warden how long a round last but if played fully, 10 minutes 1 round lasts)). If the punishment gets harsher, I would say it’s kinda abusement of powers, because the offender only abused something that was on purpose re-introduced into the flux JB(but if he does mass freekill yeah he should get a teamban). Other weapons can’t be abusable or as annoying as the pyros primary’s secondary fire is. All other weapons do, do DMG when knock backing somebody on the other team and other weapons knockback is used for killing purposes or are a side effect of the weapon usage except the flame thrower that does no damages on use of its secondary fire.
skip to 1:32 this will happen maybe not on the day of implementation, maybe not after a month, maybe not after half a year but this will happen

About the warden:
The warden is a special player that is the only one with ability to give orders and if they aren’t followed the reds are KOS. Because of that the reds might want to kill him. Of course if the warden plays as ginger said a class that can mass control(kill 2 or more players in 1 shot.) he won’t be killed off as fast, but the problem is that then the rest of the BLU team is going to be a mass controlling class cause they don’t know if there are going to get picked by the plugin so, BLUS play other classes like spy, medic, engineer, sniper, scout because for them it might be more fun to play as these classes or they want to show off their items that they have on their class like hats or taunts. Forcing BLUS to play classes they might not like to play it will make it less fun to play jb for BLUS because they have to give orders (if they dislike being a warden but like being a guard because of the 5 min freedom). Crits are there so classes that aren’t made for mass control to be able to survive a red rush on the warden, but the warden still dies if the warden isn’t a mass control class but also it still happens with a mass control class too. Also crits are there to not just be a helping hand in the warden’s arsenal but it is also one of the things that separate him from the other BLUS. The crits also help out new players to the blu team. So I would say the Soldier should have only crits on his melee same goes for demo (unless the soldier has a market gardener, the weapon is a market gardener.) pyro should only have crits on his secondary and melee same goes for heavy and sniper(why sniper because without scoping in he can do 150 DMG) , all other classes should have full crits on all their weapons(exept for spys ambasidor) because if they didn’t it would be a lot more harder to survive for them also by removing crits on some weapons it would help out the reds to rebel.

conclusion(scout shouldn't have crits, pyro shouldn't have airblast and the warden should have crits exept on some of his weapons.
Tbh regardless of the "potential" of all of these abuse situations and overpoweredness. Pyro airblast freehitting should simply just be considered normal freehitting and overusage of it on normal reds gets the same punishment. Myself and a lot of people agree that jb would be a lot more enjoyable without the warden crits as there are people who join the server and are new and complain about the warden crits without fail.

I know you are a big advocate for warden crits and nerfed scout and such but you've seen how many people complain, you couldnt have been blind to that. I feel like that says something to say the least.
 

Console

Harpreet <3
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11
I don’t know why you made a whole new thread on the same topics as the old one, but I’ll give my opinion here too :P I still feel the same way about adding back Pyro’s airblast, as it’d easily be abused. I know you refer to other “knockback” weapons, but they require damage to be done, making Blues not use them idiotically near a pack of Reds. However, people treat airblast as a fun tool for knocking around Reds for no reason. Pyro can still use his airblast for its other uses, just not to knock around the other team.

Scout double jumping is an idea that I’m not purely against, but I prefer to have it disabled, mainly since, it really does make rebelling easier simply due to the momentum changing in the jumps, alongside the fact that the increased height of 2 jumps can lead to opportunities that other Reds can’t get. The chances of an increased height from the 2 jumps being useful is rare, but possible. Another extra thing is, if double jumps are enabled, it’d make B-Hopping harder for people who use the scroll wheel since it’d reset the momentum any time they scroll to jump. I don’t know how many people use it to jump here, but it’d be annoying for those people. Same thing applies for anyone who accidentally hits space bar an extra time when B-Hopping. This is obviously not a big issue, but just a little annoyance.

As for removing Warden crits, I am neutral in here because I can understand the hate for crits, but from my experience, it’s not a huge issue. The main reason I don’t want it removed is the incentive. Of course, crits aren’t there just to incentivize Blues to be Warden, but I can imagine that if it gets removed, once the first forced warden dies, how many people do you think are going to let the round die simply because they get no benefit from being Warden? Again, I’m neutral for this and my opinion will most likely change on this as the thread continues, but for now, this is my view on it, but I’m not purely against or for it.
 

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Scarcely Lethal
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
41
This isn't meant to offend anyone, its just needed to understand our point of view.

There are different people responding to this thread that in my opinion shouldn't because it skews the overall message making it a voting thing. These changes would genuinely make flux jailbreak an amazing server but there are LITERALLY people joining the servers, finding out warden has crits and then leaving badmouthing it. People like me and ginger who are active on the servers understand whats going on daily and im not saying that you others arent but its genuinely dumb to ignore a good majority of the server over "balancing issues",

Other servers have done this and they run completely fine and others are accustomed to playing like that but with the removal of crits and scout double jump and other stuff is so unnecessary because nobody joins jailbreak for a handicapped version of playing on red team and such. Zomcom is the only other person on this thread that is active everyday and regardless even he recognises that everyone new that joins the servers complains of how boring red team is without the simple ability to rebel.

Again this isnt supposed to start fights or anything but id rather have people who actually play on the servers than people who dont even play jailbreak.
 

Zømcøm

Scarcely Lethal
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Messages
34
Zomcom is the only other person on this thread that is active everyday and regardless even he recognises that everyone new that joins the servers complains of how boring red team is without the simple ability to rebel.
i do recognise it but i still stand that crits have to stay on warden, in my reply is how it should be if the staff team still decide to remove crits(warden crit part).
 

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Scarcely Lethal
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
41
i do recognise it but i still stand that crits have to stay on warden, in my reply is how it should be if the staff team still decide to remove crits(warden crit part).
Again, your point babies blues and it doesnt teach them how to actually be guards if they can just 1 shot everything. Being on blue should be a learning experience for new players instead of haha funny shotgun from the other side of the map. The more seasoned the player is the more overpowered and stupid the crits are basically removing the choice of rebelling altogether.
 
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