Accepted Enable bhop during VSH LR

[matt]

Without bhop, the lr is very poor now as it mainly consists of engies camping in obby and is just a long boring round.
Most classes have become obsolete as their mobility is nothing compared to hales.
I think alot of people miss the lr, it used to be good.

 

[Zak[DZ]]

But this mad lad @Soviet Gremlin over here abuses it

 

[matt]

But this mad lad @Soviet Gremlin over here abuses it

True but I guess that's why we have staff to stop delayers.

Plus he does that every round anyway.

 

[Monky]

Why not let both happen

 

[Where'sTheLambSauce]

But this mad lad @Soviet Gremlin over here abuses it

Don't forget Cloud too

 

[festive god]

I still like VSH I don’t think all classes lose their mobility either scout is one of the best viable classes for hale as well. Not much has really change honestly from what I seen in jb. Plus the rounds don’t drag on as long as they use to with the delayers I think it’s a good change and to keep the bhop disable will be best.

 

[matt]

I still like VSH I don’t think all classes lose their mobility either scout is one of the best viable classes for hale as well. Not much has really change honestly from what I seen in jb. Plus the rounds don’t drag on as long as they use to with the delayers I think it’s a good change and to keep the bhop disable will be best.

Well, you could argue that scout is usable, but classes like spy, medic, demo, pyro and soldier are all either useless, only used for camping obby or are easily counter by a smart hale.

I personally don't enjoy watching hale battle with a sentry in obby for 5 minutes, but I guess some people do.

 

[festive god]

So the game VSH is unplayable than? I disagree strongly with that, If you have to rely solely on Bhop than it is nothing more than a crutch. Also some people rather perfer a hale at least being able to kill the red than watching a game of tag between a red and hale. Don't make it sound like bhop will stop any delaying issues, if anything it will increase the amount of delays in the game mode and it make it last longer as hale has to either catch that bhoping red or the red has to slowly chip away hales hp, while fighting a camping red the hale can either die in obby or kill the camping red. All classes have different ways to fight hale, yes some are weaker than others but outright useless, I say not. real quick run down-Scout faster than hale base speed, pyro can air blast/flare jump, solider rocket jumping or knocking hale into the air, demo shield/sticky jumping/trapping, (engie we all know) heavy- weakest of the classes still has knock back- can boost his speed, takes two hits from hale, sniper can mark and deal massive dmg from range, medic got the uber/crits in one combo and finally spy has dead ringer/inivis watch and backstabbing. This ain't a full list has all classes can do other stuff tho heavy is the sadly the weakest of them all.

 

[matt]

This is gonna be a long one.

If you have to rely solely on Bhop than it is nothing more than a crutch.

I'd say bhop is as much of a crutch as obby, it just evens the playing field a bit. Currently the best way to defeat hale (other than camp obby) is to deal as much damage as you can before you die and hope your teammates do the same. However, this usually doesn't happen due to skill gaps. Basically, I'd rather die to a mistake I made rather than something out of my control, such as simply not being able to outrun or out maneuver hale.

Also some people rather perfer a hale at least being able to kill the red than watching a game of tag between a red and hale

This is where the line between delaying and actively fighting is hard to distinguish, If the red is literally just bhopping away then fair enough, that is delaying. However, if the red is doing 'bombing runs' (Looping around to deal damage whilst maintaining speed) then I'd argue this isn't delaying. Dead people wanting it to end happens every round, lr or not. It simply isn't fun to spectate, I'd argue that hale battling a sentry isn't any more interesting to watch than hale battling a bhopping player.

Don't make it sound like bhop will stop any delaying issues

I think you're referring to this.

Without bhop, the lr is very poor now as it mainly consists of engies camping in obby and is just a long boring round.

By adding bhop, I don't expect people to stop camping in obby, I just like the freedom that bhop gives: to use other classes and not be stuck to one meta.

if anything it will increase the amount of delays in the game mode and it make it last longer as hale has to either catch that bhoping red or the red has to slowly chip away hales hp

I'd say thats the fun part of VSH, trying to deal damage whilst evading hale. A smart hale knows to use his super jump and bhop together and he can go way faster than any red, even if they have the rocket jumper or sticky jumper. Even if the red was to go faster or out maneuver hale, the red takes fall damage everytime they jump plus they have a finite ammount of ammo, the hale just has to be patient and put pressure on the red.

while fighting a camping red the hale can either die in obby or kill the camping red

This would still happen with or without bhop. Not sure what you mean by camping red(if it isn't in obby)

some are weaker than others but outright useless, I say not. real quick run down-Scout faster than hale base speed

Hale gains alot of speed mid-air when he jumps, he can use this to catch up to scout. Hales basespeed is 340 and scout's is 400, so with the added speed hale gets midair, scout can easily be killed.

pyro can air blast/flare jump

Like I said before, their ammo supply is limited, airblast will run out quickly and also builds rage quickly, flare jumping- using the detonator deals alot of self damage to pyro so they could only do it a few times and flare jumping with the other two doesn't give enough extra maneuverability to evade hale for long enough.

solider rocket jumping or knocking hale into the air

Again, rocket jumping does self damage and soldier only has so much ammo, knocking hale into the air consistently enough so he doesn't kill you is technically possible, but a good hale will win that encounter. (I don't expect soldier to kill hale, but bhopping gives him a bit of a chance to do more before he dies.)

demo shield/sticky jumping/trapping

Trimping will only get you so far and only a few maps have trimp spots on them and by the time you have it recharged, hale will aready be there to kill you, same applies for sticky jumping as well as limited ammo. Sticky trapping can be effective to deal a decent ammount of damage, but it almost always end with the demo dying immmediatley, unless the camp in obby.

heavy- weakest of the classes still has knock back- can boost his speed, takes two hits from hale

the knock back is barely noticable and will give heavy maybe an extra second or two at most. His speed boost makes him about the same speed as a medic, I'm not 100 percent sure on that, but even if he was the speed as scout, I already explained why that wouldn't save him. Taking two hits from hale, again will only give him an extra second or two of life.

sniper can mark and deal massive dmg from range

Any class can mark(use /fov 20). He can deal alot of damage form afar but if he isn't in obby and hale sees him, he's dead without bhop.

medic got the uber/crits in one combo

His uber only lasts 10 seconds or so, even if he has the ubersaw and is chaining with another medic, a smart hale knows not to engage until their uber is depleted.

spy has dead ringer/inivis watch and backstabbing

Spies deadringer is a viable option but when it comes to a 1v1 or the hale is focused on the spy, he can track him down fairly easily as even with the dead ringer, spy still takes about 65 damage from hale's hit, so the hale can keep an eye on nearby health packs or medic, but I'd say this is the second best option to camping obby.

TL/DR: Smart Hale can out maneuver any class, adding bhop allows for metas other than camping obby.

 

[festive god]

So you break down my arguments and address each issue. Alrighty lets do this than!!

This is gonna be a long one.


I'd say bhop is as much of a crutch as obby, it just evens the playing field a bit. Currently the best way to defeat hale (other than camp obby) is to deal as much damage as you can before you die and hope your teammates do the same. However, this usually doesn't happen due to skill gaps. Basically, I'd rather die to a mistake I made rather than something out of my control, such as simply not being able to outrun or out maneuver hale.

In no regard is camping a crutch for fighting a hale. Bhoping is an unfair ability's that gives the user an unfair advantage because bhoping doesn't have no repercussions. Camping does as it sets you in one location makes you hope that your nest can kill the hale which most of the time it can't. Hales are bosses with abilites to counter Engies nest its called RAGE each hale has one. Some are different but nonetheless still effective against it. Hale has nothing to counter Bhoping whatsoever. You outmaneuvering the hale is all about you and your class weapons and choices. Bhoping is not a viable strategy to kill the hale either as most of the time while you bhop away your team gets slaughtered and thus its just you chipping at hales hp hoping that your team dealt enough damage for you to kill the hale so thus your earlier point on hoping your teammates do enough damage is the exact same thing here in bhoping though now you are just gonna bhop the entire time instead of camping.

This is where the line between delaying and actively fighting is hard to distinguish, If the red is literally just bhopping away then fair enough, that is delaying. However, if the red is doing 'bombing runs' (Looping around to deal damage whilst maintaining speed) then I'd argue this isn't delaying. Dead people wanting it to end happens every round, lr or not. It simply isn't fun to spectate, I'd argue that hale battling a sentry isn't any more interesting to watch than hale battling a bhopping player.

Bombing runs are extremely non effective to fight a hale and is the most boring way to fight a hale simply because they do little damage than they run again, This is much worse than just camping strategy. Though it's not delaying it's most certainty on the same level as it takes forever to kill the hale and if your really good at bhoping the hale won't be able to catch that red and thus just a cycle of cat and mouse is ensured and a big waste of time. This is exactly why bhoping is so ridiculous it shouldn't be allowed in VSH. You wanting it to end cause of a red camping in obby is a lot less aggravating cause the red can't run from the hale and hale can actually catch the red or the red kills the hale that's the end point right there.

I think you're referring to this.

I was

By adding bhop, I don't expect people to stop camping in obby, I just like the freedom that bhop gives: to use other classes and not be stuck to one meta.

The meta of camping in obby? If you do bhoping all that's gonna do is create another meta of just Bhoping away from hale all the time which is no part better than camping. And you can play other classes all you want, it's all about trying to find a viable strategy and have fun playing that strategy. I have for myself its all about looking within yourself.

I'd say thats the fun part of VSH, trying to deal damage whilst evading hale. A smart hale knows to use his super jump and bhop together and he can go way faster than any red, even if they have the rocket jumper or sticky jumper. Even if the red was to go faster or out maneuver hale, the red takes fall damage everytime they jump plus they have a finite ammount of ammo, the hale just has to be patient and put pressure on the red.

Bhoping doesn't require the use of ammo though it can certainly help boost the red speed at bhoping at certain moments. Though hale can move faster then the red it doesn't stop the issue that the hale has to hit the red with MELEE weapons only and moving at a constant speed without hitting any object either makes the idea of being patient and placing pressure nothing more than just a boring game of tag.


This would still happen with or without bhop. Not sure what you mean by camping red(if it isn't in obby)

By camping red, I mean a red in one location, It would be very very difficult to run from the hale at that time as you are gonna be zeroed on by the hale. While with bhoping if you get caught all you gotta do is just build up your speed with the bhops till you are a safe distance away from the red. So no this wouldn't happen with bhops

Hale gains alot of speed mid-air when he jumps, he can use this to catch up to scout. Hales basespeed is 340 and scout's is 400, so with the added speed hale gets midair, scout can easily be killed.

Scout has knock back if hale is in the air scout can either use his primary or his secondary to mess with the hales jump and easily outmaneuver the jump. Scout is hands down one of the best classes to go head to head with the hale.


Like I said before, their ammo supply is limited, airblast will run out quickly and also builds rage quickly, flare jumping- using the detonator deals alot of self damage to pyro so they could only do it a few times and flare jumping with the other two doesn't give enough extra maneuverability to evade hale for long enough.

The idea of flare jumping and airblast is suppose to save you or your teammates in the moment not keep you alive forever, I think you have this idea that you must be able to constantly out run the hale when you need to acutally kill him by constantly doing damage to him with your team as VSH is a team game as your fighting a BOSS and thus need to work together to win.

Again, rocket jumping does self damage and soldier only has so much ammo, knocking hale into the air consistently enough so he doesn't kill you is technically possible, but a good hale will win that encounter. (I don't expect soldier to kill hale, but bhopping gives him a bit of a chance to do more before he dies.)

This is also another way to keep the round going on without making the classes be able to always run away from hale with no cons at all. If that was allowed then rocket jumping basically becomes the new bhoping that's why rocket jumping is there to just deal the damage and to momentarily save you in a pinch if needed it's not gonna be a 100% get out of jail card and your suppose to deal damage to the hale and lauching the hale in the air makes him a pretty easy target to hit and either juggle him or launch him across the map with knock back


Trimping will only get you so far and only a few maps have trimp spots on them and by the time you have it recharged, hale will aready be there to kill you, same applies for sticky jumping as well as limited ammo. Sticky trapping can be effective to deal a decent ammount of damage, but it almost always end with the demo dying immmediatley, unless the camp in obby.

So trimping wasn't my point, my point was that with a half demo knight or demo knight you can do massive amounts of damage and build speed as well to constantly run around the hale. Sticky jumping will never be way to constantly out run the hale just to get away from him for a moment as stickys can launch you father than a rocket jump can. And sticky trapping is an extremely viable way to kill hale. Especially if you do it in climb. I never see anyone do it in obby but it can most likely work there as well. Also since you did bring up trimping it's also another valid option to get away from the hale at any given moment or to get you to spots much quicker than just walking over there

the knock back is barely noticable and will give heavy maybe an extra second or two at most. His speed boost makes him about the same speed as a medic, I'm not 100 percent sure on that, but even if he was the speed as scout, I already explained why that wouldn't save him. Taking two hits from hale again will only give him an extra second or two of life.

The heavies are sadly the weakest class to fight hale thus the hardest way to make him a viable way to fight hale, But they can be made viable if you have a cluster of them as their knock back can really increase from that and heavies are meant to do massive dmg as much and as quickly possible not outlive the hale

Any class can mark(use /fov 20). He can deal alot of damage form afar but if he isn't in obby and hale sees him, he's dead without bhop.

Sniper also can use the sydney sleeper on the hale giving his team a bigger way to deal more dmg, sniper can either be a damage dealer or a support for his team to do massive dmg and though for some reason on this sever they have sniper nerfed he's still viable for his role of just doing massive dmg and supporting his team

His uber only lasts 10 seconds or so, even if he has the ubersaw and is chaining with another medic, a smart hale knows not to engage until their uber is depleted.

The uber also grants crits to the class as well so go uber a solider or a demo or a heavy and your doing insane damage plus your invincible for 10 seconds isn't nothing to laugh at. It can be your last stand before you die or can give you enough time for you to run to other reds for the hale to get distracted with.


Spies deadringer is a viable option but when it comes to a 1v1 or the hale is focused on the spy, he can track him down fairly easily as even with the dead ringer, spy still takes about 65 damage from hale's hit, so the hale can keep an eye on nearby health packs or medic, but I'd say this is the second best option to camping obby.

So spy works than? Also if spies can bhop and they have deadringer it basically makes them a god, as they can just bhop to any part of the map and heal up there, it doesn't require ammo and will always recharge, spies are OP with bhoping and one of the biggest reasons why bhop should not be VSH

TL/DR: Smart Hale can out maneuver any class, adding bhop allows for metas other than camping obby.

TL/DR: I have no idea what it means but in summary Bhoping is a clutch and it's unreasonable to add it back in bhop. Smart hale or not all classes have their way of fighting hale and teamwork is key.

Also on a side note on our own VSH sever there is no bhoping so why add it to the jb verison?

 

[EggWasTaken]

With bhop currently disabled, VSH becomes almost impossible to play unless you're a scout or a spy. Re-adding bhop would do greatly in terms of actually having fun during the LR. Indeed some may abuse this feature (soviet) and potentially just hop around like a maniac but that's more fun than not being able to run away from Saxton therefore getting you killed. In conclusion bhop should be a part of VSH as it improves the general enjoyment of the LR itself.

 

[festive god]

That's a complete lie. VSH is still playable, Solider still works, demo still works all the classes still work, Bhoping is an unfair advantage to the red team, Regular VSH severs don't have bhoping neither does the flux version and its still playable. The enjoyment of the game is trying to kill the hale, not run from the hale the entire game while your team gets slaughtered. Bhop itself breaks VSH and does make it impossible to actually really enjoy the game as reds will just bhop away most of the time and hale can't either catch them till the round ends. People who die at the start will literal just be bored because reds will literal not die till the game round is over.

 

[BLAZEDbyCASH]

Festive is a keyboard warrior who will never leave a post without getting his point across

 

[BLAZEDbyCASH]

Vsh should have bhop or its really lame ngl I feel like it has no charm without

 

[festive god]

It’s VSH in a jb sever where is there no charm? You got spots that are crazy and fun to try. Also what VSH has bhop allow flux VSH doesn’t even have bhop allowed

 

[pootis oh ya]

They should make it where it makes a pole in the game to see if people want bhop on or off, like every time it gets picked or once every map change

 

[dork]

Matt's essay alone is probably longer than the majority of my English finals ?

but I amgree

 

[HoneyBadger]

VSH is completely playable without bhop. Bhop is just going to delay everyone's time. Therefore, no. I disagree.

 

[HoneyBadger]

True but I guess that's why we have staff to stop delayers.

Plus he does that every round anyway.

Staff members aren't around all the time. Why put this in if there is going to be a risk involved?

 

[HoneyBadger]

However, if the red is doing 'bombing runs' (Looping around to deal damage whilst maintaining speed) then I'd argue this isn't delaying.

This is the problem. Nobody wants to see that. Its just a waste of time. Think about the players waiting for the round to end. Not only the players that are alive.