Declined Balance Sniper in Orange 100% Crits

[mdadelic]

I've recently had a conversation about snipers on Orange 100% Crits. It made me realize that nerfing them could only be beneficial. I started thinking about how they affect gameplay and I collected some reasons on why snipers deserve to get their power reduced.


1. cp_orange_x3, a Sniper's paradise


Orange maps have always been great for snipers. Even in regular non-crit orange servers, snipers have great power. Orange maps have very large open spaces, and very little cover. Because of this, sniper can almost shoot anywhere. While all classes can use this, Sniper's infinite range and the power to scope make him the one who mostly benefits from a map like this. Even in the tower, which is relatively safe, Snipers can shoot you when they are at the most common Sniper sites. Those common sites are at the second control point of each team. They are usually very far away from any action. The control point also offers cover and a health pack, this makes the sniper even harder to hit and kill and makes most people just stop attacking them at all. All the benefits the Sniper gets from this map would still make him a good choice, even if he gets weaker.


2. The Sniper's power


Snipers have many powerful traits that make them extremely overpowered. I have already explained how the infinite range works with the large open space of Orange maps. It's still worth mentioning how strong it is when working with other abilities the Sniper gets. One of those abilities is the 100% accuracy. The Sniper Rifle has no bullet spread, which is very common with other weapons. It makes Snipers not care about the distance at all. While other weapons rely on being closer to your opponent to make sure all the bullets hit, the Sniper can go very far away and be immune to a lot of attacks. The most absurd thing about Snipers is the damage they deal. Usually 150 damage per hit is okay from headshots, but the Sniper gets that damage for free. The 150 guaranteed damage is enough to instantly kill 5 out of the 9 classes, but because of the soldiers and demoman's movement damaging them, they also are likely to die from one hit. The damage gets even worse. If the Sniper decides to charge up a shot, it can deal 450 damage. It's not as common to charge shots because it's much easier to not scope, or only scope while attacking. But if the Sniper does decide to charge shots, it is a guaranteed kill on every class, even if they are overhealed. Scoping is another power that works with Sniper's already absurd abilities. Scoping allows for much easier hits when shooting enemies from afar. It works with all of the sniper's abilities to make the Ultimate Cowardly Class. So the sniper is very powerful.


3. How Sniper affects gameplay


Whenever you are any other class, you are under nearly constant threat of a Sniper attack. It's very difficult to fight the sniper as most classes, and the classes that can are forced to choose who to fight. When attacking Snipers you have to give up fighting everybody else, which is not a sacrifice worth making. So most people just have to ignore them. That makes it especially annoying as you can be coming out of a situation barely alive after having to murder many people who could have easily ended you, and a Sniper who has barely taken any risks can instantly kill you from a safe position. Snipers ruin many fights. When having a 1v1 with somebody, it doesn't matter if you win, some Sniper will easily shoot you once for you to die. It completely ruins dodging, as it's nearly impossible to dodge an instant attack. If somebody does decide to go after the Sniper, they have three options. They can choose to be a Spy, a Demoman, or another Sniper. Them fighting fire with fire creates a chain reaction. More and more people become Snipers which is a big problem as the more Snipers there are, the worse playing on Flux feels. If the person chooses to play as Spy or Demoman, they run into the problem of Snipers working in packs. If they kill one, the rest get them. That makes it extremely difficult to get them all.


4. How to balance the Sniper


There are multiple ways to balance Snipers. One of them is to remove Critical hits upon bodyshot. As a Spy, your knife does regular damage when you don't backstab. It makes sense not to make all attacks backstabs, but with Sniper that logic isn't followed. Something like the Spy's knife non-crits should be added. The regular damage on bodyshot is very fair, as the sniper is already powerful without the 100% crits. It would also allow players to improve. I've been playing Flux for a long time. It is around 50% of all of my TF2 playtime. I love it so much I once played it for 9 hours straight. And I have managed to improve by playing it. I started as a very new player and through Flux I have managed to become very good. I feel like that is helpful for others, so removing bodyshot crits would force them to improve. Even then, Snipers have powerful weapons which make them remain powerful, but not overpowered. This solution was just my idea, and I have heard others too. People suggested banning Sniper Rifles fully, but I think it is quite an extreme solution. Sniper Rifles wouldn't remain powerful enough to still cause problems. In both of these solutions the Huntsman remains as powerful as it was. The Huntsman is powerful as is, but it is balanced. Projectiles that are as difficult to hit as the Huntsman arrow deserve to deal the damage they do. Balancing Sniper like this could completely change how Orange 100% Crits is played. Since the start of my Flux career the Sniper has been a big problem, getting undeserved kills, stopping 1v1s, not letting anybody go outside the tower and ruining fun for a lot of people.


5. Public Opinion


I have asked some Orange 100% Crits players what they thought about Snipers. Here's what they said:


Diabolic Ovis :

sniper is fairly balanced with the rest of the game the only problem are the maps in tf2 especially orange v3, it has way to many open spaces where sniper just dominates and the ability to headglitch on certain spots makes him almost unkillable and unspottable


XENOMORPH#TF2SP :

Snipers? I hate them, they shouldn't be that powerful.


GSuer :

not gonna lie, it's bullshit because like people will just only use no scope kills

they should just ballance it, like if you do no scope hits it will only do 50 dmg


Vinex_Nikosha :

i hate snipers

to easy


Page :

they are assholes


Nebulon :

trash


mdapoko :

it's beyond easy for them to kill

they are pathetic


Naaah:

they should remove bodyshot headshots

they should add something like spy has on his knife


Casual :

I like the ones that scope all the time

 

[Pseudo]

Strong disagree.
The map is the real problem - if we wanted balancing in Orange, we wouldn't even be on Orange. A very long map with, as you mentioned, very little cover and large open spaces.
Map favors heavily all long-range-based classes, which is why 4 of the 5 viable picks have very good range options.
-Sniper, as you mentioned, can kill frail classes in one hit.
-Spy can also do that, with the Enforcer and a disguise - he also has perfect aim on his first shot and reloads faster. He also counters Engi, like in the 'real' game.
-Demo can move around with extreme ease and reach the other side of the map in few explosions. He also has enough HP to resist a hit from either of the 2 aforementioned classes.
-Soldier has great area denial and deals extreme damage.
-Engineer is the fifth viable pick purely from his support capabilities and the fact that defending the tower with a maxed sentry is very strong, as there are few openings.
If you choose any of the other 4 (bar Heavy which is situationally useful for defending) you are putting yourself at an intentional diasvantage and no Sniper nerf will fix this. And that is because of the map we play on.

Clearing up some things in your post, too -

Snipers can shoot you when they are at the most common Sniper sites. Those common sites are at the second control point of each team. They are usually very far away from any action. The control point also offers cover and a health pack, this makes the sniper even harder to hit and kill and makes most people just stop attacking them at all.

You are exaggerating a lot. First off, hits from the second control point are very hard to hit, precisely because you are far from the action. Secondly, the tower blocks most of the view behind it, so you don't see much people this way. Third, the slope after leaving spawn hides most of the players' bodies, so only headshots work at this point. Either headshots or jumping enemies.
And well, if the enemies are *in front* of the tower... they can see and hit you pretty well, just as Snipers can. Even a Scout can deal a lot of damage this way.

And no, people don't just stop attacking Snipers.
Personally, I shoot them whenever I see them, as with other classes. Doesn't matter if they try to hide behind a cover. If they can see me, I can see them.
Soldiers, Demos, Spies and other Snipers can easily remove a Sniper from the second point. The best spot a Sniper can get is on top of the tower.

While other weapons rely on being closer to your opponent to make sure all the bullets hit, the Sniper can go very far away and be immune to a lot of attacks.

Which is the point of the class even in the 'real' game...?

Whenever you are any other class, you are under nearly constant threat of a Sniper attack.

Come on. Apart from the "ackshually Spy", this isn't 1984. Sometimes there are no Snipers. Sometimes, the Snipers are bad. Sometimes they're friendly. Sometimes they're focusing on other people.

When attacking Snipers you have to give up fighting everybody else, which is not a sacrifice worth making. So most people just have to ignore them.

Again, no, most people don't ignore Snipers lol. It's frequent to see Soldiers on the tower sending rockets to Sniper spots to get them to move or die.
On the subject of "giving up fighting others" though, I also disagree. Classes with AoE attacks can fight everyone at once. Classes with long range can worry about other enemies later and shoot Snipers first. Classes with close range coming up to a Sniper are indeed a sacrifice not worth making (even then, sometimes they succeed lol).

a Sniper who has barely taken any risks can instantly kill you from a safe position.

Having played as Sniper for a long time on Orange, I can safely say there is no such thing as a "safe position". Even Spawn isn't safe. Points 2 and 4 have a low cover which can barely protect them - on the enemy side, it gets worse as you are under a constant onslaught of enemies coming at you. The health pack doesn't do anything as you have to leave your cover to go get it.
The tower, first and second floors can be wiped in a matter of seconds by a well-placed rocket, sticky, or a Spy (see what I said about "viable classes"?). Even a Pyro can clear those, as most Snipers won't look behind them fast enough. Even if they hit, Pyro will live.
Top of the tower, arguably the strongest spot, can be cleared with a sticky too; if not, sentries aiming at it, a Spy sneaking up top, just shooting the guy, etc. There's no position in which a Sniper can see you but you can't.

If somebody does decide to go after the Sniper, they have three options. They can choose to be a Spy, a Demoman, or another Sniper.

People play these classes because they are viable in a map favoring long-range classes.



Then again, I'm a Sniper main.
But I honestly don't think a nerf will solve the issue.

Sniper isn't *that* strong, it's just the most common of the viable classes. That's why people have such a skewed perception of it.
Even then, Sniper isn't that prevalent. Yesterday, there were 3 and 2 in teams of 8. Today (joined to check) there was 1 and 0 in teams of 5. (1 and 1 if you count me afterwards).
Personally, Sniper isn't the class I would consider the most broken - that'd be Spy. Same damage, even on 'bodyshots', same perfect aim, same hitbox size, but can disguise and go invisible. But you see a lot less spies than Snipers. Today, on the server, there were 0 when I checked. Rarely do you have more than 2 or 3.

So, my opinion is no. Sniper isn't balanced, sure, but Orange Crits isn't meant to be balanced. It physically can't be. How are you going to balance Pyro in this map? Medic? The map isn't balanced, having crits for everyone isn't balanced, but that's the beauty of it. Everyone can kill everyone else fast. Nerfing Snipers will not fix this.

 

[mdadelic]

Strong disagree.
The map is the real problem - if we wanted balancing in Orange, we wouldn't even be on Orange. A very long map with, as you mentioned, very little cover and large open spaces.
Map favors heavily all long-range-based classes, which is why 4 of the 5 viable picks have very good range options.
-Sniper, as you mentioned, can kill frail classes in one hit.
-Spy can also do that, with the Enforcer and a disguise - he also has perfect aim on his first shot and reloads faster. He also counters Engi, like in the 'real' game.
-Demo can move around with extreme ease and reach the other side of the map in few explosions. He also has enough HP to resist a hit from either of the 2 aforementioned classes.
-Soldier has great area denial and deals extreme damage.
-Engineer is the fifth viable pick purely from his support capabilities and the fact that defending the tower with a maxed sentry is very strong, as there are few openings.
If you choose any of the other 4 (bar Heavy which is situationally useful for defending) you are putting yourself at an intentional diasvantage and no Sniper nerf will fix this. And that is because of the map we play on.

Clearing up some things in your post, too -

You are exaggerating a lot. First off, hits from the second control point are very hard to hit, precisely because you are far from the action. Secondly, the tower blocks most of the view behind it, so you don't see much people this way. Third, the slope after leaving spawn hides most of the players' bodies, so only headshots work at this point. Either headshots or jumping enemies.
And well, if the enemies are *in front* of the tower... they can see and hit you pretty well, just as Snipers can. Even a Scout can deal a lot of damage this way.

And no, people don't just stop attacking Snipers.
Personally, I shoot them whenever I see them, as with other classes. Doesn't matter if they try to hide behind a cover. If they can see me, I can see them.
Soldiers, Demos, Spies and other Snipers can easily remove a Sniper from the second point. The best spot a Sniper can get is on top of the tower.


Which is the point of the class even in the 'real' game...?



Come on. Apart from the "ackshually Spy", this isn't 1984. Sometimes there are no Snipers. Sometimes, the Snipers are bad. Sometimes they're friendly. Sometimes they're focusing on other people.



Again, no, most people don't ignore Snipers lol. It's frequent to see Soldiers on the tower sending rockets to Sniper spots to get them to move or die.
On the subject of "giving up fighting others" though, I also disagree. Classes with AoE attacks can fight everyone at once. Classes with long range can worry about other enemies later and shoot Snipers first. Classes with close range coming up to a Sniper are indeed a sacrifice not worth making (even then, sometimes they succeed lol).



Having played as Sniper for a long time on Orange, I can safely say there is no such thing as a "safe position". Even Spawn isn't safe. Points 2 and 4 have a low cover which can barely protect them - on the enemy side, it gets worse as you are under a constant onslaught of enemies coming at you. The health pack doesn't do anything as you have to leave your cover to go get it.
The tower, first and second floors can be wiped in a matter of seconds by a well-placed rocket, sticky, or a Spy (see what I said about "viable classes"?). Even a Pyro can clear those, as most Snipers won't look behind them fast enough. Even if they hit, Pyro will live.
Top of the tower, arguably the strongest spot, can be cleared with a sticky too; if not, sentries aiming at it, a Spy sneaking up top, just shooting the guy, etc. There's no position in which a Sniper can see you but you can't.


People play these classes because they are viable in a map favoring long-range classes.



Then again, I'm a Sniper main.
But I honestly don't think a nerf will solve the issue.

Sniper isn't *that* strong, it's just the most common of the viable classes. That's why people have such a skewed perception of it.
Even then, Sniper isn't that prevalent. Yesterday, there were 3 and 2 in teams of 8. Today (joined to check) there was 1 and 0 in teams of 5. (1 and 1 if you count me afterwards).
Personally, Sniper isn't the class I would consider the most broken - that'd be Spy. Same damage, even on 'bodyshots', same perfect aim, same hitbox size, but can disguise and go invisible. But you see a lot less spies than Snipers. Today, on the server, there were 0 when I checked. Rarely do you have more than 2 or 3.

So, my opinion is no. Sniper isn't balanced, sure, but Orange Crits isn't meant to be balanced. It physically can't be. How are you going to balance Pyro in this map? Medic? The map isn't balanced, having crits for everyone isn't balanced, but that's the beauty of it. Everyone can kill everyone else fast. Nerfing Snipers will not fix this.

LMAO!!!